By FirstBubba
Due to a rather “brisk” discussion on another blog about turkey ammo, I could think of no other way to prove that #8 shot IS adequate for turkeys than xX-rays of harvested birds.
First and foremost, I’d like to thank Dr. Kerri D’Arbonne, DVM and her husband (both avid hunters!) of Chisholm Trail Vet Clinic, Duncan, Oklahoma for the use of their equipment for this endeavor.
My apologies for the mess I had to clean up afterward! LOL! Secondly! This project was my maiden voyage to the “Sea of Xray.” These shots aren’t “exactly” what I had in mind, but hope they help!
Let’s go with “layout” first.
Left to right: Turkey #1 was taken at nearly 35 yards, quartering away right to left. Turkey #2 was taken right at 30 yards, broadside traveling left to right. Turkey #3 in the neighborhood of 15 yards moving right to left. The first shot is a side view.
Shot #2 is a frontal view. Left to right: Turkey #1 was taken at nearly 35 yards, quartering away right to left. Turkey #2 was taken at 30 yards, broadside traveling left to right. Turkey #3 in the neighborhood of 15 yards moving right to the left.
Left to right: Turkey #1 was taken at nearly 35 yards, quartering away right to left. Turkey #2 was taken at 30 yards, broadside traveling left to right. Turkey #3 in the neighborhood of 15 yards moving right to left.
(Told you I were no expert! LOL!)
- All three birds dropped at the shot.
- All three birds were taken with 2.75″ Winchester Super-Handicap
- Heavy Target Load @1250fps with 1 1/8 ounce of #8 lead shot.
Plain Jane Remington 870 12 gauge with an aftermarket “extra full” choke tube.
The “brisk” discussion was mostly over whether #8 shot would maintain enough kinetic energy to penetrate deeply enough to break bones (vertebrae) out to 40 yards.
Note on bird #1, the two #8 shot that appears to be behind the right eye. Those two shot HAD to transect the entire head to reach their position.
I believe “turkey specific” ammo is overrated and over priced. Why buy 5 to 10 rounds for $2 or so per round when I can get a box of 25 for 5 to 7 bucks?(depending on sales. I AM a tightwad! LOL! )
I also believe that the 3 and 3.5-inch ammo tends to cause otherwise good hunters to attempt shots well beyond the 40-yard mark, resulting in wounded and unrecovered birds.
Therefore, I shoot 2.75-inch ammo and call birds in as close as possible. I believe “pattern density” kills, not shot size. The more pellets you deliver to the target, the higher your chances of delivering a fatal pellet strike. Therefore, I shoot #8’s to deliver as thick a pattern as possible.
I’ve burned lot’s of ammo at sheets of newspaper and butcher paper to get an idea of “pattern density,” but what REALLY happens when you pull that trigger? A specific percentage of pellets in a ten-inch circle at 30 yards?…40 yards? Guess what guys; A turkey head ain’t that big!!
I’m hoping these X-rays give others a look at what happens that the patterning board just doesn’t tell you.
IF you are comfortable with the ammo you shoot, the range you shoot and the pellet size you prefer, DO NOT change because of my beliefs! I’m not suggesting everyone change ammo, but if you’re looking for different ammo options, here is one!
If you have a hunter friendly vet in your area, talk to them. Xrays reveal a lot about pellet performance!
huntfishtrap says
I can’t disagree with anything you say here, but I’m just not comfortable with the idea of using #8 target loads for turkeys. At close range I have no doubt they’d work, but what if the bird hangs up at 45 yards? I for one don’t think I could pass a shot at that range, which is why I use a load that will kill them cleanly far beyond that. But to each their own, and if you have the self-control to only take point-blank shots, you’re a better man than I.
FirstBubba says
I wouldn’t say “better man”.
Maybe just more determined.
Anymore, taking a bird is still very important.
But to me hft, what’s more important is outsmarting the bird.
I can no longer “run ‘n gun”. The mind is willing, but the body just won’t accommodate any longer.
Besides that, if I spook a bird, he’s out of my hunting area very quickly. Since I refuse to hunt public land, I can’t just move a quarter mile and start again or try and out maneuver reluctant birds.
Lately, I’ve reverted more to “ambush” than “calling”.
Birds 1 and 2 were “ambushed”. Bird 3 was a call in.
More than one bird escaped unscathed by staying “just out of range”.
I don’t have a problem with killing birds at a distance. My longest shot so far is about 150 yards with a ,.22 Hornet.
FirstBubba says
“… I’m just not comfortable with the idea of using #8 target loads for turkeys. …”
If I may ask, “Why?”.
huntfishtrap says
X-rays notwithstanding, I’m just not sold on the idea that they can reliably penetrate the skull/spine of a turkey beyond 30 yards. It’s like using a .223 for deer – it SHOULD work if all goes smoothly, but your margin for error is near zero.
FirstBubba says
Thanks for the reply, hft.
I appreciate your honesty.
JM says
Hah, great timing for this, FirstBubba. Very cool pictures, but I am glad that you were the one being forced to clean/use such an expensive machine and not me. I worked in a lab and part of the reason I quit is that I have hand tremors occasionally, and there’s nothing like handling a fragile piece of equipment that was worth 6+ figures to bring them out. Off topic already…so back to the post. I was literally just having the debate with a buddy over using 2 3/4 shells for turkey. He was looking at me like I was dumb as a rock when I mentioned I only use 2 3/4 shells for turkey…heck my turkey gun is my dads old wingmaster from the 80s that can’t even hold more than 2 3/4 inch shells(great friend, but he’s the type that uses 3.5″ shot…hunts with a 80 pound draw weight…truck lifted so high you need to be 6′ tall to get in…I’m sure we all know “that guy”). But I do side with HFT that I would still be wary to use 8 shot for turkeys. I would never say that I am a better man than him(maybe a a better hunter haha).., but I think the farthest shot I’ve taken at a turkey at would be 30 yards, and even at that distance I wouldn’t want to use 8 shot. Getting close to the targeted species is a big part of hunting for me.
FirstBubba says
My longest shot, so far, has been a tad over 40 yards.
Unfortunately, the idea of xraying turkey heads hadn’t occurred to me at that time.
If you’re comfortable with your ammo, by all means, stay with it.
The point is, that #8’s DO work.
Pattern density does “work”.
Number 8 shot CAN break turkey) bone beyond 30 yards.
The xrays prove it.
N.C.L.W. says
Needless to say Bubba – +1!
N.C.L.W. says
Baby Magnum 2 3/4″ Winchester #5’s I enjoy contain 1 5/8OZ of shot (not sure if these are even loaded and available via new production from Winchester). My 3″ shells are always more like 1 -1/2OZ to 1 3/4OZ so a 2 3/4″ can definitely rock it up with the best of Turkey loads!
huntfishtrap says
You a better hunter than me, JM? Now them’s fightin’ words!! LOL
I don’t disagree with using 2 3/4″ shells for turkeys at all. They’re very effective at moderate ranges, and they sure don’t hurt your shoulder or your wallet as much as the 3 1/2s I use.
JM says
Hah, well we are about the same age and size, so I suppose it would be a pretty fair fight =].
FirstBubba says
“… 30 yards, and even at that distance I wouldn’t want to use 8 shot. …”
If I may ask, “Why?”.
N.C.L.W. says
My initial reaction to hearing the cryin’ and complaining that Bubba’s been subjected to – “brisk” discussion and all, was why?! Dead’s dead and there’s no arguing with that.
Seeing the xrays shows that the bird is still dead… Over’s over, all! 😀
Great stuff, very pleased to see these X-Rays indeed. Myself, I can’t currently help and show any X-Rays at this juncture, yet do hope that someone will eventually come along and display the reaction of these majestic birds to fours and fives!
Best Sincerely and thanks be to FirstBubba, Charlie and especially so to the fine folks @ Chisolm Trail Vet Clinic.
Cheers, all!
JM says
Hah, if any of that “cryin’ and complaining” could be interpreted by my comment I made a mistake in my wording. No complaining from me…as you said dead is dead. Proof is in the…erm, xrays. I hear it all the time hunting deer with a .30-30…..funny how I am yet to shoot a deer without recovering it, while just this year a buddy gut shot a doe with a 7mm magnum and we never found it. It’s all about knowing your shot limitations with any gun/load.
Charlie says
JM I believe those comments “cryin’ and complaining” are referring to a personality on F&S.
N.C.L.W. says
Yup! Nothing to do with yourself, JM.
It’s nothing personal against anyone in particular, I haven’t even read the thread FirstBubba mentions here. Just nutzo though, for someone to try to say that what has resulted in multiple clean harvests is unethical.
N.C.L.W. says
Yeah it is! fyi .30wcf AKA .30-,30 is very successful on BIG Elk around where I am these days. It’s an ideal Deer cartridge that’s fine for most any NA Big Game species. In face I came to town and asked folks “Who’s killed Elk with the 30-30?” Answer is basically “Who hasn’t!” It works.
FirstBubba says
N.C.L.W.,
I would also like to see the result of various shot sizes.
Maybe this fall or next spring, I’ll try some different shot.
Fours and fives seem to be popular. Maybe I’ll try those.
Oddly, I REALLY want to try some 9’s, which is where this small shot “thing” kinda started with me! LOL!
N.C.L.W. says
Yes indeed, very interesting idea regardless of shot size! Cheers, Bubba
huntfishtrap says
N.C.L.W., I’d venture a guess that not too many pellets would show up in an x-ray of a turkey shot with 4s or 5s. I’ve killed a pile of them with 5s, and most of the pellets pass completely through their head and neck, except at longer ranges – beyond 40 yards.
FirstBubba says
Had the same thought on “pass throughs”, hft!
Unfortunately, those don’t show on a xray! LOL!
N.C.L.W. says
I’m inclined to agree on the pass through front. As per fours, I figure they’ll pass through at just about any range they can hit a Turkey at!
I have recovered a pellet or few from Ruffed Grouse in sizes 5 and under and we are talking birds shot at less than 15 yards. Pass throughs even on Snowshow Hare and Squirrel well past 40 yards with the fours for me thus far.
Even with pass through, I do expect the damage to be quite evident in an X-Ray with the fours in particular.
FirstBubba says
You may be surprised about “pass thru”.
The smaller the shot, the higher the chance for “pass thru”.
The difference between pushing a knitting needle or a sewing needle through canvas.
Remember the old Kevlar bullet proof vests?
Very effective…except against the .22 magnum! Little tiny, high speed pill would slip right through fabric that easily stopped .38 and larger caliber bullets.
N.C.L.W. says
No Bubba, just no.
.22 Mag is not known for doing as you describe to Kevlar body armor. Nor does a smaller roundball necessarily out penetrate a larger one per se. I am not saying either will work better every time, in every application and all instances. This is why we have so many various shot sizes!
All these sectional density ideas presented here are out of place/misapplied. formulas such as KE (what does the amount of energy it takes to lift a weight of one pound one foot in the air have to do with bullet performance? Ad copy, that’s what. It’s just a way that manufacturers have devised to compare one light weight projectile traveling at speed to another. This is why velocity squared is utilized in the formula – to emphasize light weight/fast moving projectiles. Yet I digress! A bit off topic yet SD in this application makes no sense.) don’t apply here in my mind. Back to task –
The bottom line is that with head/neck impact Turkeys really just don’t take that much killing to bring to bag. We should all feel free to use what we figure works best. You’re clearing enjoying fine success with your rig there and what’s been working for you! Godspeed.
FirstBubba says
N.C.L.W.
My youngest is a Fed LEO and was issued 3A level armor. The greatest danger of “pass-thru” with a handgun is from a high speed, solid point .22.
But I digress and apologize. This is a factoid I should not have brought to this venue.
N.C.L.W. says
Awesome, FirstBubba!
I really shouldn’t have nitpicked your post anyhow… You’ve contributed much here and I very much appreciate it, Sir.
Most sincerely – May your Youngest never need to discover first hand the efficacy of said vest, against anything!
FirstBubba says
Thanks, N.C.L.W., I’ll pass the well wishes along.
…and no biggie on the other stuff.
Buckshott00 says
Thanks for Putting these up Bubba!
Let’s see what ol’ SP3 has to say now, more excuses and BS I’m sure. I still can’t get over it when I had to explain that there is practically no difference between Winchester Super X Heavy Game Load and Winchester AA Heavy Target loads.
Just once I’d like for him to man up and admit he was wrong. Oh well, no arguing with results.. When you going hog hunting again?
FirstBubba says
For me Bucky, pigs are a target of opportunity! LOL!
Spent lot’s of time “busting brush” rooting them out of thickets in years past.
As deer season progressed and I had four opportunities to “test” the 6.8mm on hogs, the more I’m impressed with the round and the gun.
If I went on a “pig safari”, I’d definitely tote the 6.8mm AR!
FirstBubba says
Buckshott00,
You seem to have this “number” thing (math?) down pretty pat.
Let me see if I can transfer a “thought” train for you to consider! LOL!
Consider both pellets, say a #8 and a #4, consist of the same exact material. Lead.
Now, the ratio of weight to bearing surface between the two, I would think, would remain essentially the same.
Since the bearing surface of the #8 is much smaller, will it react in the same approximate manner as a #4, if they’re traveling at the same velocity and encounter the same material? (i.e. – turkey neck)
Make sense?
Buckshott00 says
Not sure exactly what you’re trying to say Bubba. The Material property you’re describing is density. It’s why a pellet of the same volume of steel weighs less than a pellet of the same shot size (volume) of lead or tungsten. You say bearing surface, but I think what you mean is volume,
So long as the makeup (Lead Antimony) stays the same between ratio of mass to volume remains the same. Density = Mass(weight)/Volume. The density of lead is 11.34 g/cc or 0.4097 lbs/cubic inch. I’m ignoring the antimony. Now so long as the surface of the pellet is perfectly smooth and the shape is perfectly round, the surface area (what you called bearing surface) should be tied to the volume. SA= 4πr^2, V= (4/3)πr^3 The more dense a material is, the more mass it has in the same volume. It’s why tungsten rounds are even better than lead, if you can afford them.
Since both volume and surface are of sphere are dictated by the diameter(really the radius) of the sphere, so long as the shot is perfectly round and smooth the ratio of volume to surface is the same. It’s why you see some manufacturers playing with the geometry to try and get different effects square shot flies differently than round shot.
impact physics is largely determined my momentum (mass X velocity). Lots of people focus on Kinetic energy but it’s only part of the story. Momentum has to be conserved as well which means that the Damage is done by the change in momentum. This is why when you convert to steel shot you have to either go larger pellet size or faster pellets or both, to have the same effect as lead. Anyway, turkey necks are all basically the same material and as long as you keep the shot the same material, the effect is generally the same. Smaller shot will penetrate better so you might get different a different impact result than with the larger shot because a pass thru momentum change is different than a when the pellet stays in the body.
Lots of ways to look at this. You have the mass and velocity of lots of small pellets vs the mass and velocity of a few big pellets. I know turkeys can be tough birds, but the reality is you only need 1 pellet somewhere along the CNS to do a bird in. You don’t have to break the birds neck at the base of the breast as your shot passes thru its head in order to kill a turkey.
FirstBubba says
“…Smaller shot will penetrate better…”
THAT, mi amigo, is my #1 point!
“…the reality is you only need 1 pellet somewhere along the CNS to do a bird in. …”
…and THAT is my #2 point!
The higher the number of pellets delivered on target, the greater the opportunity for a fatal pellet strike…regardless of pellet “size”.
Buckshott00 says
That’s why I believed this all along people tremendously underestimate how power their shotguns have. They belief that #8 is ineffective comes from the belief that #8 pellets are too small to have enough momentum to penetrate at distance. Well how far are they shooting? #6 will penetrate a turkey neck at 60yds. How many people are out there shooting turkeys at 60yds?
Point #2 is really the whole reason for using a shotgun, no? Otherwise why not use a light rifle? So long as you have momentum enough to penetrate to something vital at the range of your target; why not get as many shots on target as possible.
Everyone can agree that more pellets on target means more likely a clean kill, that’s we we use different chokes and check pattern boards.
I mean, I never understood the other side’s complaint. Dead is dead. Maybe they’re against wringing the neck of a turkey that’s still flopping around? Or is it that they thought a specialized turkey load delivers more shots on target? IDK
Charlie says
I regularly use the smaller shot in late spring and early fall when there is a lot more leafy stuff to shoot through. There are 7 and 8 shot loaded with a powder charge equivalent to any magnum turkey load.
I want to take time here to give FirstBubba a thank you for his research and sharing it on my blog. I am honored.
FirstBubba says
Thank you. I’m happy to share.
Charlie says
First Bubba has agreed to do some further research on turkey heads and necks. I am sending him a couple of boxes of Third Degree ammo and a box of Fiocchi Golden Turkey #6’s.
Hopefully, he’ll get jinxed next spring, and we can all look forward to more X-ray data. 😉
N.C.L.W. says
Good news! Thanks be to the both of you. Needless to say perhaps, I am looking forward to the continuation of the X-Ray post(s).
FirstBubba says
I’m hoping to “do the deed” this fall!
The “Minister of Finance” can take one bird and I can take one.
Unfortunately, i may lose my “sweet spot” after Jan 1.
Our lease is up for renewal.
I’ve got a sinking feeling the landowner will either overprice it or let “family friends” take it.
If we can get another 3byear deal, that will make me 70. With my mobility issues, that may put me out of the hunting game.
…but we’ll SEE!
My grandfather took his last deer at 81!
JM says
@FirstBubba,
Where there’s a will there’s a way. One of my grandpas still occasionally hunts and fishes at 89.
N.C.L.W. says
You can surely adapt to stay afield at most any any, in most any condition. This may change the way one Hunts though it certainly does not have to end it. Your Grandfather along with yourself are exemplary Hunters who surely live with true balls and spirit!
I am hoping that your lease goes well for you at renewal time… Should it not, I am confident that you’ll be able to find a next good spot to “do the deed”. Hey, speaking of which, if Wisconsin has adopted the pink color as legal under hi viz attire Law, you can always head up there to the do the deed in the pink! Not too old for that. 😀 LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
Ahh okay, settling down now… This is indeed a fine Family website after all… Just couldn’t resist.
Charlie says
One of my goals is to be the oldest man to kill a deer. About six years ago a fellow age 104 shot a deer in Minnesota then four years later killed another. That bar is set pretty high now at 108!!
FirstBubba says
I’m not about to just “stop”, but I am becoming more selective about the days I hunt and the deer I shoot! LOL!
Blizzards and sleet used to drive me forward.
Now, first thing I do when I get up is check weather.
Then comes the decision to either turn on the coffee pot or go back to bed.
My goal last year was a deer with both my AR’ s that I built (assembled?).
One “so-so” buck with the AR10 .308.
Four feral hogs and 1 doe with the AR15 6.8mm!
Goal accomplished!
I also do a lot of deer shooting with a Kodak!
Charlie says
The evolution of a hunter is understandable. Once I was a deer hunter who also hunts turkeys, now I consider myself a turkey hunter who happens to deer hunt. With deer careful consideration is given as to where that deer is standing; uphill or downhill, is the hunting partner young and vigorous, is it accessible? Turkeys are so much easier to carry out. Running and gunning turned into meandering and gunning; someday it might be crawling and gunning.
JM says
@Charlie,
Good to know that I only have 84 years to go until a possible chance of being the oldest person to kill a whitetail. I just gotta keep an eye out for that sneaky HFT since we’re the same age…gotta make sure he doesn’t pull a dick Cheney on me.
Charlie says
JM, have considered the real/likely possibility that the age line is going to move even higher in the next 84 years?
huntfishtrap says
Hey JM, didn’t you once say that you didn’t think you’d live to see 20, or something like that? And now you’re thinking about breaking this record? Boy, you must’ve found religion!
JM says
@Charlie, Don’t even get me started though on what medicine/average ages might be in 85 years or even a fraction of that time. Scary to think about honestly. In theory modern science could keep a body alive forever with enough donor organs…would just be a matter of finding a way to transfer information from one brain to the next(which many believe will be possible)!
@HFT, Yeah…I was sorta reckless in high school/my teen years, but I’m a better person today for it haha. To be very specific my father died unexpectedly when I was young(person who taught me to fish and hunt). Not to make excuses, but that sort of screwed with my outlook on life. But I’m over that phase…now I want a family and look forward to the retirement life. But back on the topic of breaking the age record I definitely have good genes on my side…multiple close relatives have broken triple digits on both sides of my family.
huntfishtrap says
Scary? What’s scary about it? I’d love to live to 150 years old, as long as I could still hunt! Heck, if they gave me the brain of a smarter person, that wouldn’t be a bad deal, either.
Sorry about your dad, too. Can’t imagine what that must’ve been like. You’ve always seemed like a good guy to me. You could hit the woods or water with me any time. I don’t think you’ll need to worry about competition from me at 108, though. I worry about what my quality of life will be like when I’m 50, much less 100.
JM says
I’d be down to hunt with anyone on this forum if our crossed paths. Everyone seems like a good person. But yes, you are probably right…I think the best course of action is just to treat very hunting season like it could be your last. Never know what’s going to happen in the future.